Darwin Blog

Our General Manager Glenn Grantham was born in Perth and grew up in the late 70s and 80s. He loves AFL and East Fremantle and the Dockers are his teams.

Blessed with natural intelligence, Glenn sailed through school and applied to become a fighter pilot in the RAAF. He was accepted but had to wait a year as they thought he was too young. That was a fateful decision as Glenn tried his hand at real estate and he was having too much fun and making money to go back to the RAAF after a year.

Now Glenn has been in the real estate industry for over 30 years.  Glenn talks about his life, career and the real estate industry in the Territory on this episode of Territory Story.

This is the Territory Story podcast, with Leon Loganathan and Peter Gowers. Thanks to Ward Keller, the territory law firm.

Leon: Hello, and welcome to the Territory Story Podcast. I'm Leon Loganathan, and with me, my co-host, who is hunkered down somewhere in Queensland.

Peter: Allegedly. How are you, mate?

Leon: I'm well. I'm well. You're sounding very good there in that hotel room.

Peter: Thank you. The acoustics are sublime, I must say.

Leon: Just, let's hope we don't get interrupted with your evening meal.

Peter: That's out of the way, and I've had my welfare call for the day, so we should be all good now.

Leon: Good on you. Right. Well, mate, we've got a guest on the podcast tonight that I don't have to introduce you to because you actually work for him. I know him very well. He's a good mate. And I've been wanting to have him on the podcast for quite a while, because I like his story, and I like to give him crap about it too. It's gonna be a fun journey. So, on that note, let me introduce our listeners to Mr. Real Estate himself, Glenn Grantham. How are you, mate?

Glenn: Yeah, good, mate. I think that's probably overstating my title, but I'll go with Mr. Real Estate. Thanks, man.

Leon: I thought you would've said understating it, mate, the way you normally operate.

Peter: Good call, Leon. Good call.

Glenn: We do what we can.

Leon: We'll start throwing it down now, delivering it up now, straight away, mates. So, Glenny, we're gonna give you an opportunity to tell us your territory story, beginning with, where were you born?

Glenn: Where was I born? So I was born at King Edward Memorial Hospital in Subiaco, in Western Australia, which was considered the baby factory of WA. I think that was pretty much where about 85% of kids were born in the '70s. And, yeah, that was the first place that I crept out of the womb.

Leon: And grew up in which suburb, mate?

Glenn: Oh, mate, I knew you were gonna try and pull that one.

Peter: Well, it was an obvious admission, Glenn.

Glenn: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know whether I grew up or I was dragged up. I grew up in a little place called Gosnells, sunny Gosnells, in WA. Yeah, interesting little joint, and home of a hell of a lot of state housing, and some interesting people.

Peter: Where is that, Glenn?

Leon: It could be worse, mate.

Glenn: It's actually south of the river in WA, around about probably 17k's out of Perth, heading down the train line toward... Well, it's one step up from Armadale, so that's a good thing.

Peter: Okay.

Leon: That's right. And, Pete, you don't know much about Gosnells, but look, let's just say sunshine and melting come to mind.

Peter: Okay, yeah.

Glenn: Well, to be fair, Leon, I wasn't one of the Gossy boys. I was just a Gosnells state house.

Peter: And he's not still there, Leon, so...

Glenn: No, no, I got out of there as fast as possible.

Leon: No, but he and I have a very similar sort of...we could very well have been neighbors, mate, because...

Glenn: Pretty close.

Leon: Because you grew up supporting the same football teams I did, mate.

Glenn: Yeah, well, I was an East Fremantle supporter, and actually had a few run-ons to the boys back in the day. So, yeah, East Fremantle was the team to be around, and they were very successful back in the day. And I'm still an East Fremantle supporter, so...

Peter: Well, I always wondered, because you're a Freo supporter as well. I thought...they're probably the less supported team from WA, so I wondered how you got there and that makes total sense.

Glenn: Yeah, so, originally, my family comes from Northampton, which is a little town just north of Geraldton, and that was a supplier area for East Fremantle as well. So cousins from up there are Chris Mainwaring, Paul Hasleby, the two Cripps boys that are running around flying at the moment, and they all fed through East Fremantle. Basically, at the end of the day, I was the least successful footballer from my family.

Peter: Well, you've got to have some mantle to hold onto.

Glenn: Yeah, yeah. I still played a reasonable game, but, you know, no good for the AFL.

Leon: So let's take a slight segue here and see if I can have a discussion with you, Glenn, about a subject matter that Pete knows a hell of a lot more about than me. And let's see if I can...

Glenn: There's some honesty.

Leon: So, East Fremantle, back in the late '80s, we're talking about... Who was the captain of the team there? I can't even remember. Was it Tony...?

Glenn: Brian Peake. Brian Peake, Tony Buhagiar.

Leon: Those two. Tony Buhagiar. That's it.

Glenn: Jimmy Sewell was my favorite.

Leon: Jimmy Sewell, he looked after some squash sports in [inaudlble 00:05:59] at some stage, didn't he?

Glenn: He played for Footscray, mate.

Leon: Did he? You knew that, did you, Pete?

Peter: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Leon: There's nothing you don't know about footie, is there?

Peter: No. At an AFL level, no. But, I mean, if you go and talk WAFL in the '70s and '80s you're gonna lose me, for sure. I know some players that came out of there, but they're only gonna be the bigger names. I'm sure the local legends, there's plenty of them around that I wouldn't know of.

Leon: Yeah, there was some amazing footballers back in those days that came out of WA that never actually [inaudible 00:06:41.234] AFL. Because, of course, it was WAFL's AFL back in those days. Yeah, it was some heady times. I remember when I went down and I trained with East Fremantle, and I ran around with Buhagiar, "The Budge," after he'd come back from Essendon. I ran around with Brian Peake after he'd come back from Geelong. And Steven Greene, and Jimmy Sewell and, you know, some really, really amazing footballers. But, at the same time, played against a guy which I lined up on, which was ridiculous because he was six-foot-eight. But lined up on a guy by the name of Mick Rea, who'd never actually played football in the eastern states, but probably could've. So, yeah, some people chose not to go, and some people just went and picked it up. But, you know, Gary Buckenara days, yeah, and Barry Cable was one of my clients. You know, Graham Moss was a legend at the time. Yeah, just some really, really amazing footballers. Brownlow medalist, Mossy, so...

Peter: I'll tell you something interesting about that. I was actually DJing one night in Darwin at the Tennis NT annual awards. And, every year, they get someone of note up to come and speak. John Fitzgerald spoke one year. You know, they always got some fairly big names. This one particular year, they got a guy from Adelaide who was a coach, sort of well known within the circles, but I'd not heard of him. But he was from the U.S. originally and had settled in Australia, and he'd spent time in Darwin. And suddenly he said... That night's kind of stayed with me, and it would be relevant to that sort of way of thinking, Glenn. And that is that, he said, "You know, in the '70s and '80s..." Actually, I asked Joel Bowden this question when we interviewed him, and he had an interesting response to it. But this fellow said that the issues with kids who played sport at sort of a national level, being able to make it in any team these days, there's no barriers. There's scouts everywhere, there's people everywhere. Whereas back then it was much harder. Because the VFL, the SANFL, the WAFL, they were completely separate outfits. There were scouts, but they were few and far between on sort of a national scale, like they are now.

Glenn: Well, I mean, the sport at that time, the WAFL league threw a Foundation Day derby between East Fremantle and South Fremantle, which was in June, I think it was, which now is WA Day. But you had the likes of a guy by the name Stephen Michael, who is still considered one of the greatest ever footballers in Australia, and he never played VFL. And you'd have 25,000 people there at South Fremantle Oval or East Fremantle Oval watching the Vigonas, and the Riolis, and all those guys running around for South Fremantle, and Peaky and Buhagiar, and all those guys running around for East Fremantle. And it wasn't automatic that those guys would go east, and Stephen Michael never did. You know, and he was considered to be one of the greatest ever footballers that was produced through the WAFL system, but he never went east. So...

Peter: I love how, at certain awards nights, they will sort of retrospectively award footballers from all of the states, you know, with their various medals, and they'll induct them into certain halls of fame. I love sort of learning about these guys that, yeah, in the eastern states we'd never heard of, but were legends in their day, in their home states.

Glenn: Yeah. Travel was just something that was not available. I mean, and then you go back another 40 years, my dad was a state amateur golfer and then went on to be professional, and played in the Australian Open. And we heard all the stories back in the day about Craig Parry who'd gone across, and camped in his car, and done all those things. And my dad, he tried to get to the Australian Open to go and play, because there was no sponsorship. And he played with a guy who's probably reasonably well known, Gary Player. And he played in the same group as Gary Player. And you look, and those days, that travel, to consider overseas and all those things, just wasn't available, like it is now.

Peter: I was gonna say there's some distinct similarities there, as we speak.

Glenn: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Peter: Yeah, the travel wasn't available then. It's available now, but it comes at a huge cost.

Glenn: Huge cost. Yeah, yeah, massive.

Leon: So, there you go, mate. That was a nice little segue into footies. So hopefully [inaudible 00:12:06.283].

Glenn: We do like that. Just so you know, I do still support Fremantle off the back of East Fremantle, but East Fremantle was my main team. But both of them aren't in the finals, so it's all good, which is pretty regular for both.

Peter: Yeah, sadly, success has been few and far between for Freo. Although, you know, I guess there's still the interstate rivalries that exist to this day, but I find very few people who will say a mean word about Freo. Everybody sort of seems to...whether they're their second favorite team or whether they have a soft spot for them, everybody's kind of keen for Freo to have some success one day.

Glenn: Well, it's interesting this way. West Coast is playing Collingwood, the two most hated teams in the competition. So, really, nobody gives a shit if they get knocked out.

Peter: Yeah, it's a bit like that. It's a bit like that.

Glenn: Everyone's happy.

Peter: My mob are taking on Richmond, so...

Glenn: Good luck with that, yeah.

Peter: Yeah, I know. Anyway.

Leon: So, mate, you went to Gosnells Primary, did you?

Glenn: I was actually head boy at Gosnells Primary, yeah.

Leon: There you go, you see? You did show leadership from a young age. And then, after that, what, Gosnells High?

Glenn: No, I went to Kelmscott High School. There was an extension program that I went to there.

Leon: So this is the thing I want you to learn, Pete, about our mate. He was quite the little propellerhead, you know, without meaning to be.

Peter: A natural propellerhead. I'll tell you what, Glenn. Until about a month ago, you could have said, "I went into an extension program," and I would have just been like, "I have no idea what he means." But someone else we had on recently explained that concept.

Glenn: Who was that?

Peter: We had a guest on recently. I think it was Stephanie Estonia[SP].

Leon: Yeah, [inaudible 00:14:08.445] good work.

Peter: So tell us about it, because I'm intrigued by these things.

Glenn: Yeah, I mean, it was very early, early stages. I actually started in the extension program in grade six, where it was just going one day a week to a different school and basically giving us more challenging things to do, because we probably were the kids getting bored in class.

Peter: It wasn't court-imposed, though, right?

Glenn: No, no, it wasn't.

Peter: Okay. Because there's other kids you try and keep out of school as well.

Glenn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, different kids. No, but it was an interesting thing. I mean, I don't know that it was a great experience in my life. It was one of those we were actually...the aim was to actually put us through high school within four years rather than five. And I've got a very late birthday, so I was a young child at that point in time. So mine's a 1st of December birthday, back when the intake was worked on the calendar year. My mother forced me into... She was sick and tired of me being at home, and said, "If you don't take this kid, it will be state-imposed." So, yeah, so I ended up qualifying for what they called 'intellectually talented students,' which was probably IQ based, or something along those lines. I don't know. And then it was basically five years of ridicule where you went to school, you're a stream that was going through Kelmscott at that time, was the largest public school. We had 13 streams, and so we were 8-13. And, yeah, there were a lot of kids there, and there were a lot of kids that were pretty happy to make themselves acquainted with the smartasses. Yeah.

Peter: When you say ridicule, because you were in a late schooling stream?

Glenn: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, so it was a challenging time.

Peter: Because you played sport, you could have circumnavigated that somewhat though, right?

Glenn: Yeah, so public school system really didn't cater to that. It was very funny. I played footie for the school. I played cricket for the school. I played squash for the school. I did all of that. However, there were six grades of phys. ed, and I was in the fifth grade of it, and I received a D for three years running. But I represented the school in every possible area of sport, and swimming, and athletics, and the whole bit, but I was in the fifth out of six, because I was considered to be academic.

Peter: Oh, really? Okay, you couldn't be both.

Glenn: Yeah, that's right. You couldn't be both. Yeah. But they were pretty happy to have me in the guts playing footie. Yeah.

Peter: Wow, okay.

Leon: So you went through there, got to Year 12 at the ripe old age of, what, 16 or something, right?

Glenn: Yeah, sixteen-and-a-half, yeah.

Leon: And then without really applying yourself that much, blitzed the matriculation?

Glenn: Yeah, I did reasonably well.

Leon: And decided to, what, become a fighter pilot at a stage, did you? Or when did you...

Glenn: Ha, no, so, yeah. So I was actually accepted into the Air Force when I was 15, but they take you in when you're Year 11. But it was dependent upon...they made the decision that they wouldn't put me in front of the board, which is wing commanders and all that sort of stuff. When I finished, or it was halfway through Year 12, because they deemed me to be too young. And so they suggested that, "You're too young to go into officer school," back in those days. So, you know, probably hadn't had a wet dream at that point in time, so I had to move forward. And so they looked and said, "Well go to uni for a year, and when you get out of uni we'll have a chat after the first year."

Peter: Yeah. Wow. So, what, 18, presumably, was the sort of minimum entry age, was it?

Glenn: Oh, no, they were happy to take you at 17, but just because I was probably short, I was probably five-foot-nine at that point in time. And between the middle of Year 12 and the first year of uni, I went from five-foot-nine to six-foot-one. So, yeah, I was a late grower, and I was young. So, as a consequence, they looked and they thought, "Well, we would prefer you to have that year of extra texture up your sleeve." I'd qualified through aptitude to fly fighters and all that sort of stuff, but, yeah, just being young.

Peter: You couldn't reach the pedals at that point.

Glenn: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Well, actually, five-foot-nine through to six-foot-two was the limit. So you couldn't be any shorter than five-nine, and you couldn't be any taller than six-two to fit in the cockpit. Yeah, and so I went from five-nine to six-one, so I was good, good to go. But, yeah, it was just age.

Leon: Pete, I just want you to reflect on that for a moment, right? Because I don't know what it was like when you were growing up, but when I was growing up everybody wanted to be a fighter pilot. Okay? And that was exacerbated in 1986 when Top Gun came out.

Glenn: Absolutely, yeah. And Tom Cruise is not tall enough to be a fighter pilot.

Leon: No, he's not. He's five-foot-nothing.

Peter: And every teenage boy thought they could get Kelly McGellers by becoming a bloody Top Gun fighter pilot.

Glenn: Absolutely.

Leon: So old mate here managed to achieve something, Pete, that I've got to tell you is extremely hard, right? And how do I know that? Because I had wanted to join the Air Force, right, and I know the rigorous testing that you have to go through. Basically, they're testing you for three things. They're testing you for pilot aptitude, right, flying aptitude, they're testing you for officer material, and they're testing whether you're smart enough to go to uni. Okay?

Glenn: That was the one that was the problem.

Peter: I was gonna say, "Which one did you fail on, Leon?"

Leon: All three, all three. And now, when I talk to this fellow here, right, I look at him, I think to myself, "How the hell did he actually pass all three of those exams?" Because he doesn't like authority, right, so he should have failed that officer thing straight away.

Peter: He's a chameleon, though.

Leon: Well, he reckons that he was good at Space Invaders when he was a kid, so that somehow put him into the...

Glenn: I actually wasn't that great at Space Invaders.

Peter: He was bloody good at Galaga, though.

Glenn: Yeah, I did like Galaga. Yeah, 1942 was a favorite as well, yeah.

Peter: Yeah, true.

Leon: So he did very, very well. And so you'd think any kid that had got in would actually take it seriously, but what did you do, Glenn?

Glenn: Well, I went to uni, and that really wasn't my.... After six months of uni, I knew I'd disappoint my parents if I didn't pass, so I falsified the report.

Leon: Not the first time he did that.

Glenn: And then I went and played golf, because I had a bit of pedigree in that area. So I went off and played golf. I would go to the student building. I'd play pool for money. And if I didn't have any money I'd play for beer. And then, at the end of the year, I confessed to mum and dad that I hadn't exactly been studying during that period of time. And I got a phone call from the Air Force, and they said, "Okay, we're ready for you." And I said, "Oh, listen, I've actually just started a real estate course, so I'm probably busy," and that was it.

Peter: So you blew off Top Gun for real estate.

Glenn: Yeah, pretty much [crosstalk 00:23:23]

Peter: Good on you, mate. Good job.

Glenn: And I've never looked back.

Leon: But your mother was a real estate agent, right? Or still is.

Glenn: No, no, not still is. She's 148 now. But, yeah, she was a real estate agent at the time. I used to go out and deliver pamphlets for her and do all those things when I was at Kemmy High, so...

Leon: So what was the draw? What drew you into real estate?

Glenn: Oh, they were willing to pay me. No, I don't know. The funny thing about it was I did engineering at uni, and I hated it. And I only did engineering at uni because the Air Force indicated that they thought that that was what I should be doing in order to progress the next level to go to flying. So, if it was my own choice, I probably would have gone and done business or commerce at UWA, and headed down that path. But I was always interested in money trading, international money trading, things along those lines. So when I got the opportunity, it was actually my mom's boss who said, "Would you be interested in doing this? I think that you've got a bit of potential in this area." I went, "Oh, really, you think?" That's the first time anybody had told me I had potential. And so I said, "Yeah, I'll give that a crack," and I came home and broke the news to my mother that I was gonna be involved in real estate, and she started crying. She said, "I really don't want that to be the case." And I said, "Oh, mum, what's wrong? It's something that you seem to love," and all those things. And she said, "I just don't want you to go through the disappointment. You're my child, and I don't want you to have to deal with that as a 19-year-old kid." I said, "Mum, don't worry about it. I'm tough, I'm good, you know, I move forward," and that was it.

Peter: What was the disappointment that she thought was gonna be involved?

Glenn: WA, the areas that we were working in... And she was right. The area that we were working in, you know, the rejection that you get, the sort of way that you're looked at as a real estate agent back in those days, you know, you're no better than a car salesman.

Peter: A lawyer.

Glenn: Well, it was car salesman, insurance salesman, real estate agent, and we vied for the bottom three positions. So, yeah, so my mum looked and went, "I don't want you to have to go through that." But also the disappointment of...it was a really tough time, it was a recession we had to have from Paul Keating. You know, he wasn't solely responsible for it, but the fact of the matter was it was a really tough time to start in '89. And I came into a marketplace where finance was very hard.

Peter: Tough to get, yeah.

Glenn: You'd go out, and you would smash through, and you would get a listing, you would resell the house, you would do all those things, and then everything would fall over, and you just don't get paid, because it's commission only. So it was all commission only in those days, and she didn't want me to have to go through that pain, you know? Of finding out that you were actually... I've said to a lot of agents over the years, "Real estate's a great thing. You get paid what you're worth, and it's really tough when you find out you're worthless."

Leon: Did you get that talk, Pete?

Peter: Thankfully, I had a few runs on the board before Glenn and I hooked up.

Glenn: Yeah. And it's an interesting thing. You know, the game's totally changed. I mean, reps get paid and all the risk now is on the shoulders of the employer rather than the employee. But back in those days it was totally commission only. You know, this was 32 years ago. And, yeah, it was a tough game, a really tough game.

Peter: So how do you find that? Because you've done it from that entry level where it was commission only. It was, you know, "We'll give you a desk, a phone, and a month," to today, where there's some assurance with an agent coming in. If they've got no experience, no runs on the board, then they've got a guarantee. Albeit, it's not going to be life-changing, they've got a guaranteed amount of money coming in week on week. Yeah, as a principal of an agency now, how do you see that, as progress or otherwise?

Glenn: Oh, it's definitely not progress. Yeah, the game was a real game back in those days, and it was dog eat dog, and it was you get paid what you're worth. And if you couldn't make it, you got out. And the reason why you got out was because you just were not making a dollar. And so there was no risk on the employer, you know, great for an employer, but I was an employee during that period of time. But it was great on the employee, because you just knew you had to survive, and whatever it takes, whatever it takes. You know, there's none of this, "I'm staying home today because I'm sick." You can't get sick. You can't get paid when you're sick. You know, and you don't miss an appointment, and you're early for every appointment. And we talk about that from a service perspective. That was where I learned service, because unless you serve the client you're not getting paid. And, yeah, it just amped up...the service the client received was so much greater, because the agent knew the absolute... It was his life that he was playing with, you know? He needed to get paid. So he knew that he had to deliver that service.

Peter: What about with inside the agency, Glenn? Given that it was very dog eat dog, and each agent, even within an agency under the same banner, was effectively working for themselves... I mean, I'm sure you would've experienced a lot of fun and games with listings being taken out from under people, and things of that nature.

Glenn: Yeah, funny enough, never. You know. Yes, you would imagine so, but I never experienced that. I worked for a family company, and I always considered myself part of that family. In fact, the guy that owns the company, the guy that encouraged me to get into real estate, is still one of my very close friends, and I bought the business off him. And the way...fish rots from the head down, and so the whole ethos of that company was that we were part of a team. And that was something that...I mean, I was a high-level salesperson for 15 years of working there, and I got poached all the time. And I never once considered leaving that place, despite the fact that I could've been paid a lot more elsewhere commission-wise, because I was part of that team. So, yeah, I never experienced that.

Peter: That does kind of make sense, within a family business. If you get the right sort of mindset amongst everyone, I could see that working.

Glenn: The dynamic was good. I mean, we had some assholes working there, but it was never... I don't ever remember entering into a fight, you know, in any way, shape, or form, with people within my office. And, see, Western Australia was a funny place, because we worked on multiple listings, so there was even cooperation between yourself and other agents, which is something that I had to come to terms with when I got to Northern Territory. It was something I'd never experienced, was this dog eat dog sort of mentality with opposition.

Peter: It's such an interesting thing, because I started real estate in the Northern Territory. And then, of course, I moved to Dubai, which operates under more of an American system. And, you know, if you've ever watched Million Dollar Listing or any of those shows, most deals you do in that part of the world, there's a buyer's agent and a seller's agent, and everybody works happily together. They have to. And I always found it, in Darwin, so frustrating that you might have a buyer, and another agent's got a property they want to sell, you see it on the market for a while, you approach them, and they offer you some piddly commission split. And you just think, "Mate, you've had that place sitting there for two months. I've got a buyer for it, and yet you're thinking 10% or 20% split is fair?" But, yeah, in Dubai it was brilliant. You get buyers' agents ringing you all the time, or sellers' agents, and you all sort of work together to get the deals done.

Glenn: Well, when I started in WA, and for the first seven or eight years, it was 50-50. You know? We actually had a scale of fees. It was only in 1995 that the scale was deregulated federally. And so I started in '89, so what's that, six, seven years? So that entire time it was 50-50, and you would just split the comm with whoever, and you would give them [inaudible 00:33:44] on it. And it just worked well. You all worked in cooperation. I went out every Friday for lunch, and all the guys that I went out with were all my opposition. I then came up here to the Northern Territory... And it changed a little bit when the market changed, but not greatly. And then I came up here to the Northern Territory, and I walked into my biggest competitor, and...walked in, and knocked on the door, and introduced myself, and said, "Hi, I'm Glenn Grantham. I've just come up to take over Raine & Horne, and I'd really love to catch up with your team, and go out for a drink, and we'll do all that sort of stuff," and 13 years later I'm still waiting, still waiting, because we're competitors. I just don't get it.

Peter: Yeah, it's an unfortunate fact of, certainly, Darwin real estate. I presume it's the same throughout the whole of the territory, but it's something that I'd love to see change, because you can get so much more done when, you know, both parties are working together.

Glenn: It's in the best interest of your client. Your client's the vendor of the property, you're getting paid by them, and your best interest is to get the highest possible price. So, I mean, at the end of the day, if Pete or Leon has got the buyer that's gonna pay the highest price, shit, let's work together, let's get the highest price. So that does not happen here.

Peter: Yeah. But interestingly, like Leon's mentioned a few times, you know, he does have quite a few interactions with other lawyers in other law firms in Darwin, so it does happen in other industries.

Glenn: Yeah, not real estate. Yeah, yeah. I tried to change the face, mate. I can only do so much. And then I set about becoming the biggest wanker in the town so that I could upset as many real estate agents. I've achieved that.

Peter: Mission accomplished, mate. Well done.

Glenn: I know, I know.

Leon: So how did you end up in the Territory?

Glenn: Well, that's a really easy story. So I had a drug debt with the Coffin Cheaters, and I came up to the Northern Territory to try to escape being killed. [crosstalk 00:36:09] That was the rumor. That was the rumor. That was what went around. But, no, I got offered the position and after...got offered the position, which is interesting, because that'd be really funny since my cousins are all the Coffin Cheaters. But I got offered the position at Raine & Horne because I owned Raine & Horne WA with my business partner, and we sold that back out to Raine & Horne nationally. And I got offered the position with the guys to come up and try and fix up Raine & Horne NT, which was struggling at the time.

Leon: Right. And what year was that, mate?

Glenn: What was it, 13 years ago, so 2008.

Leon: How had you found the Territory, mate, of that time? How does it compare to WA?

Glenn: Yeah, challenging. I mean, it's [inaudible 00:37:02] loved it when I first came here, absolutely loved it, like I'd moved up here for a holiday, thought, "Huh, he's easy. This tree change, or this sea change, or whatever is absolutely fantastic. Relax," holiday lifestyle, all that sort of stuff. That quickly changed. I mean, it's probably as busy or busier than what it was down south, so what I was doing before. But, yeah, I've had my on and offs with NT. I don't struggle with the weather. The weather's fantastic. I love it, you know, whether it's wet or dry. It is what it is, you know, I like hot. The only thing that I was struggling with is things to do. I'm not really a fisherman. I hunt a bit now, but not really. I come off a farm and [crosstalk 00:37:57].

Peter: Mainly the pantry?

Glenn: Yeah, exactly. You know, sort of. So I ebb and flow in relation to the things that you can do in the Territory. Shopping and all that sort of stuff is down south, cafes, all those things. I own an XP Falcon that I like to drive, but there's nowhere to drive the bloody thing to. I ride motorbikes, but there's nowhere to ride to. If you just want to go straight, it's great. But if you want to turn a freaking corner, you've got trouble. Yeah, so it's challenging to keep yourself...but it's getting better. The NT, it is really...with Darwin, it is really starting to throw up a lot more options.

Leon: So what do you do in Perth that's different to Darwin? What makes it more exciting or more interesting?

Glenn: The beach.

Leon: Yes, yes. I can relate to that.

Glenn: Yeah, I've always been a beach lad. I come from...I always gravitated to Fremantle, and I gravitated to Fremantle because of the beach. So from Cottesloe, to Port, to South Beach, to all those areas. Yeah, the beach. That's really the biggie. I love the café lifestyle. I love the windy roads. And, Margaret River, I'm a wine person. So, you know, I like down south.

Leon: Right, but you find the weather a bit... How cold were the winters there in Perth these days?

Glenn: Freaking cold, Leon.

Leon: I know. It's terrible.

Peter: Anything under 25's cold, isn't it?

Glenn: And when the rain comes out of the sky, the water's fucking cold. You know, like, "What the hell is that? What are these cold splats hitting me?" Yeah, no, the cold, I hate it. And I suffer a bit of arthritis and different things when I'm down there. Yeah, it's not great, not great.

Peter: Do you have a wood heater at home?

Glenn: No, no, no. No, it's generally just gas down there, so, yeah.

Leon: Well, look on the bright side, at least you didn't live in Albany for three years.

Glenn: No, I think that would just be the end of my life. Why would you do that?

Leon: Albany is cold in summer, mate. In the middle of summer, when Perth's 40 degrees, Albany will be like, you know, 6.

Glenn: And, I mean, the beaches down there look lovely, but you can't get into the water. And if you could, because it was warm enough, you'd get eaten by a shark, so what's the fucking point?

Leon: No, I was never comfortable in the beaches in Albany, mate, because the water was just too dark blue. I find it a little bit scary, mate.

Glenn: You go to the edge and it just goes [vocalization].

Leon: Exactly, exactly.

Glenn: Basically, it's Antarctic just there.

Leon: Exactly right. So real estate up here has being reasonably good to you. When did you two fellows get together?

Glenn: Well, initially, we probably met when we bought out Focus First National. What was that, 12 years ago? And, therefore, we've known each other all the time. So the last 12 years we've known each other.

Peter: Yeah, the Focus First National thing was interesting. I sort of left as that process was going through and spent a couple of years away, and then, yeah...

Glenn: I think I tried to actually get Pete to come work for me, but he had already gotten on a plane, so...

Peter: Yeah, I sort of had to go very quickly. I wasn't running from any biker gangs or anything.

Glenn: Well, I was going to say, you had to go very quickly, and the company I bought had a woman that had just got pregnant so, did that have anything to do with it?

Peter: Not me, no, no.

Glenn: Just checking, mate, just checking.

Peter: I wasn't involved. No, no.

Glenn: Just checking. Yeah.

Peter: The way my employment worked was like, "Yeah, you've got a job, but we need to get you here ASAP." So it was good to see, when I did get back, that it had all sort of gelled nicely and things were cooking along.

Glenn: Yeah, I know. It's interesting. I envy Pete having had that opportunity to go and live expat overseas. A mate of mine did expat in Dubai for five years as well. And, yeah, actually, one of my other mates, he's talking about coming up here to come to work for me. Leon, you probably remember Cameron McDonald. And he's talking about coming back up here to work, and he's just come up back from Dubai for five years, with a wife who's pregnant and all that.

Peter: Did he work for Raine & Horne in Dubai?

Glenn: Yes, he did, yeah.

Peter: I think I met him. I think I met him, yeah.

Glenn: Yeah, so he came from working with me.

Peter: Yeah, right. Yeah, well, I left Darwin when the market was sort of flying, absolutely flying, you know, to go on to that sort of meteoric rise from about 2001 to, oh, GFC, so 2008. And then I came back, and I remember talking to some people in real estate at the time. I came back sort of midway through and spent a few weeks in Darwin leading up to Christmas on annual leave. You know, I was told at the time, "Look, we're unaffected by the GST. I think we're sort of insulated from it." But I think it just took a bit longer for the Darwin market to sort of, I guess, catch up and be affected by it. And coupled with, now, the winding down of impacts from a building phase and several other contributing factors, it's been a bit of a tough slog for a while.

Glenn: Yeah, we've had a tough time for five or six years, but, I mean, right at the moment we're flying. The market's very, very strong, and I think it's improving. And it's interesting to see that, and it's something close to Leon's heart, is the Western Australian market seems to be doing the same thing. And I was talking to one of my mates down there, and he was a Darwin boy for a while as well, and he said, "Well, the last time I saw Darwin start to change, to turn the corner, Perth was just changing the corner as well." And so it's interesting to see that both those markets are quite well aligned. And when I worked through the Perth market in sales for 15 years, pretty much, that was directly opposite to the boom-bust cycle from the east coast. And I think that Darwin's not dissimilar to that. That said, we are very, very affected by projects and a major project, and I think we were insulated through that GFC by some major projects. But it's something that...yeah, we're due, we're certainly due.

Peter: Well, Glenn, when I first started in real estate, which would sort of be, you know, early 2000s, I remember...we'd do all the research on potential listings. And I remember looking at this stretch from Darwin for about 20 years. And, you know, you talk to a potential seller, and you get the address, and you look at their property, and then, obviously, properties in the surrounding area. And there was a stretch where, over a period of about two decades properties would change hands two, three, four times, and the sale price wouldn't change by more than about $10,000. It could be more, it could be less. And it was sort of like just nothing happened.

Glenn: Stagnating.

Peter: And then, come the early 2000s, it just took off.

Glenn: Yeah, it went berserk.

Peter: You know, when I first started, it was a pretty simple philosophy where if you listed a property, you knew you were gonna sell it. The hardest part was getting the listings. But once you did, it was a walk in the park. And, you know, prices were going crazy, valuations were going crazy. So, you know, you have this situation where sometimes you're educating the valuers on what a property should be worth or selling for, and you were breaking records for suburbs because they were believing in what it was that you were telling them.

Glenn: Well, mate, I've been 32 years and all I've done in my entire career is educate valuers.

Peter: They do need it sometimes, Glenn.

Glenn: It doesn't matter whether it's up, down, or sideways, mate. They need education. Sorry, Daria[SP].

Peter: Glenn, we've talked a lot on this podcast in recent months, in the lead up to NT election, and Leon's very passionate about the current debt levels of the Northern Territory.

Glenn: No shit.

Leon: I'm the only one, apparently.

Peter: Yeah, well, apparently, if the votes are anything to go by. Have you noticed, in real estate, that there's been any effect with the popularity, or otherwise, of the current government?

Glenn: I do always defer from making any form of comment in relation to political leanings, so let's get that out of the way to start with. But I think that the result recently was a very good result. The reason, and it certainly doesn't indicate which way I lean, but I think it was a very good result for the Territory. One of the things I've always said is that no matter which party gets into power, what that generally means" and in this instance was the case, that more than 50% of the populous would like them to be in power. And what that automatically does is builds confidence is more than 50% of the populous, because they've voted for the people that are in power. So that's a good result.

Whichever way it goes, a hung Parliament is a very bad thing, but a Parliament in majority is a very good thing. I also think the continuity of the government is a good thing, and I think the fact that the current government have been given a bit of a wake up call as to the changing of the balance of power has probably said to them, "Hey, you need to do something." So I think all those things are good. And I think that the general feel of the marketplace, as it pertains to real estate, is positive off the back of that. So I'd have to say that it was a positive result.

Peter: Okay, so you think part of the sort of, I suppose, the strength of coming back into the market is related to that?

Glenn: Oh, I think so, yeah. Once we got through the election, there was certainly more positivity in the market and more commitment, straight away. So, certainly, you would have to say that there was a relation between those two things. It was heading in that direction prior to, but there was a little bit of a lag coming into the election, and that lag stopped afterwards, there was commitment afterwards. So you'd have to think that there was definitely an effect, a knock-on effect.

Leon: So what do you reckon is happening in the market right now, mate? Because the last time we spoke about this in any detail, you know, banks were reluctant to lend, the economy wasn't going well. So what is causing...? You're saying you've been busier than you've been in five odd years, what do you reckon is causing that?

Glenn: Yeah, it's interesting. So pre-COVID really affecting the Northern Territory, and I'm saying early in 2020, because it wasn't until March that, really, it started to have any form of effect on the real estate market, we were already starting to experience an increase in demand in those A-grade areas. And what I'm talking about is A-grade Darwin areas like Fannie Bay, Parap, Larrakeyah, Gardens, Stuart Park. So we're getting some really good results in there for properties that weren't encumbered by hurdles in front of them, so available for a family to move in, that sort of stuff, and well presented, etc. So we started to see some traction in that.

As soon as COVID hit, everybody went, "Holy shit. What the hell's happening here?" and put their hands in their pocket and held onto their money. A lot of people went to the bank and drew their money out, like I did, waiting for the banks to collapse. And we all went, "Jesus, what's going to happen?" And then, all of a sudden, Darwin continued, and that's what we've experienced since then. And now, so it's started to ripple out from just those A-grade areas, into the northern suburbs with A-grade stock, and into Palmerston's A-grade areas with A-grade stock. So that ripple, the next ripple wave, will push through, and the next ripple wave will push through. That's what it looks like. That's what we're seeing at the moment.

Again, we haven't gone through the total effect of COVID. We've got the mortgage pauses, which are all finishing now. There's gonna be some financial stress on some people. You know, I don't know how how big an impact that'll have upon supply into the marketplace. But the demand seems to be sufficient in the Northern Territory to continue that on its way. And then you've also got to consider that JobKeeper is finishing, and that will be an influx of a lot of people now to qualify to get financed on properties. So maybe that'll counteract the balance of the mortgage pauses that are out there. Because people that are on JobKeeper can't qualify for financing right now. So, you know, there's those things. But, yeah, as to what's happening, it's a boom-bust cycle. We haven't had one for a long time, and we're due a boom. And so, I really think that's what's happening in the Northern Territory right now.

Leon: But normally a boom is generated by something. I mean, Inpex generated the last boom, and before that was ConocoPhillips. I just don't...

Glenn: Normally, in Darwin, what's happened is it's been resource-led or it's been generated by the fact that there is a big project. That's not necessarily the case across the country. We've moved against the cycle of the rest of the country for a long period of time, and so what happens is we become an option because the other places aren't an option. And we don't need a lot of interest in the Northern Territory from other places to make a huge difference in Darwin because of the small population. And I think that's what's happening right now.

Peter: Do you think any of these people who bailed from other states will end up staying?

Glenn: We're already seeing that, Pete.

Leon: Really?

Glenn: Yeah.

Leon: So give us some sort of anecdotes, mate. You obviously don't have to mention any names, but what's going on?

Glenn: I mean, I've had people from...elderly couples, this is like three, four months ago, people that hadn't even seen properties in Durack. Sold a property in Wanguri, I sold a property in Stuart Park, to old people that had not seen the property and come up from southern states, that were septuagenarians that were looking to get out of those areas down south. That was an article that ran in the NT News. And, of course, that was met by, "A real estate agent full of shit." But, you know, the....

Peter: That's what I thought.

Glenn: Yeah, I mean, all I do is tell you what's happening, you know? I can't tell you what's... All I can do is tell you what we see at the [inaudible 00:54:28], and that's what we see. You know, huge inquiries from down south all the time, currently.

Peter: Well, that's positive.

Leon: So these people are coming to Darwin to stay, to get away from COVID. Is that what you're trying to tell us here?

Glenn: Oh, it's some that are doing that. I mean, you know, the other thing is I've got a mate out at the airport, and he tells me we've had, what is it, we had 70,000 people cross over the border since the border's open. Okay, most of those people are in a caravan, and they probably go out in a caravan as well. But during the period of time since the border's open, he tells me there's 8,000 positive influx into the NT, of people on planes, 8,000 positive. Well, you don't come here for the freaking weather, because it's wet season.

Leon: What are they coming in for?

Glenn: Well, that's right. What are they coming here for then?

Leon: There's not 8,000 jobs, mate. That's for sure.

Glenn: No. Well, that's right, but they're coming here. I don't know. I'm not the ideas man. My name's not Gunner, you know? Whatever he's doing I don't really care, but they're coming here. So, I don't know, and they haven't gone home. What are they doing? And we're selling property. So you work it out. I don't know. You know?

Leon: Yeah, it's worth having a good look at that one, mate, because I think there are opportunities, especially now with Zoom and things like that. People have realized they don't actually have to be in the city that they work in... They don't have to live in the same city that they work in.

Glenn: Did you see the...? I mean, the other day I was telling the story about a guy that I met at the pub, at the keg. I'm having a yarn with him, and I said, "Oh, what do you do, mate?" He says, "I work in the public service in Victoria." "Oh, okay, what do you do?" Something in the health department there or some bloody thing.

Peter: That's why he's not there.

Glenn: I said to him, "What are you doing in Darwin?" And he goes, "Oh, I've moved up here for six months." I said, "What do you mean you've moved up here?" He says, "Oh, I'm working from home." I said, "Yeah, but not your home." He said, "No, I'm not working from my home. I'm working from a home." He was in Wulagi.

Peter: I work for the health department in Victoria. I would be anywhere but in Victoria right now.

Leon: There's a vote of no confidence right there, isn't it?

Glenn: So I said to him, "When did you come up here?" He said, "I came up here in March." He goes... I said, "Okay..."

Peter: He knew what was about to happen.

Glenn: He said that was when he got told he was about to be working from home, in March. So he came up here in March. He's rented the place for a year. I said, "Well, what if you have to go back early [inaudible 00:57:25]?" You know, so, yeah, in answer to your question, that's what people are doing.

Peter: That's a good example, isn't it?

Glenn: And I told that story to the NT News as well, and there was a heap of things underneath "real estate agent full of shit." [crosstalk 00:57:48] Come down to Cav, I'll introduce you to the bloke. You know, whatever, you know, check his credentials.

Leon: Well, the other potential opportunity Pete and I have been discussing, mate, is with the U.S. election coming up. Mate, there's a lot of agitated people over there. And if our mate gets a second term, I reckon Australia should be open for business, mate.

Glenn: Oh, you reckon?

Leon: So, yeah, that could potentially be an opportunity. But it's really interesting to know that, you know? I still don't know why... Of course, you've given us a few examples of why people are coming up. But to actually buy houses, that part I don't quite understand.

Peter: Well maybe they're frustrated with the way down south, and this is sort of... I mean, the reality is that in Melbourne, while they're praising and high-fiving each other every day now, this has been predicted to continue through until Christmas. Now, it may not be the case because the numbers have improved, but they can very quickly blow out again. And you've still got 30% of the population in Melbourne, or thereabouts, who think this is a complete myth. So they're not doing anything to help not support this thing.

Glenn: Well, one other thing as well, another story for you. This is back in September last year. There was a guy who came up, and he came up September, he came up November, he used to ring me all the time. And he was a purchaser for like an investment consortium, and he was coming up looking for 30 properties across Darwin, of which he purchased during that period of time, over three or four different hits coming up. Because he came up to buy, why? Because Darwin was at the bottom.

Peter: Cheap, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Glenn: So maybe these people are coming up, and they're looking and going, "Well, Darwin's at the bottom." I remember going to Tasmania back 30 years ago, going across there and going, "Holy shit. Anything that I look at, you can get a four bedroom, two bathroom with a freaking view, and it was $95,000." Meanwhile, I was sitting in Willetton, which you'd remember, Leon, because that was where your mum lived, and it was where my mum lived. Sitting in Willetton with a $375,000 house in a cul-de-sac that sided onto the main road. And I looked...and when I could sell that and buy the whole of bloody Hobart, and you look and you go, well, sometimes it's just people that look and go, "I'm shifting because it's cheap."

Peter: Do you think that the rental prices have remained strong enough so that people like your investor...there's still a lot of appeal there because of the strong rental prices?

Glenn: Yeah, so yield is always been high in Darwin. It still is high, you know, because median house price dropped and rental income dropped, but the yield is high. What we're experiencing at the moment, because of the nature of the transaction with rental, these rentals have gone through the roof, and median house prices are slowly starting to catch up. So, again, yield is high, and that's always been high in Darwin. You do have to counterbalance that when you're a down-south investor, though, that the expenses associated with that yield are high in the Northern Territory as well by comparison to down south. But not so high as to be discouraging, that you couldn't make an income. But, yeah, yield's always been high in Darwin and will continue to be high in Darwin.

Leon: What about property management? You talked about expenses, property management costs. Is it my imagination, or are they at least two or three percentage points higher in Darwin compared to down south?

Glenn: Yeah, absolutely, and there's some reasons behind that. One of the things with that is that PM fees are high because, A, first thing is wages are higher in Darwin. Second thing is that property managers can't manage as many properties in the Northern Territory as they can down south. And I've done property management in WA, South Australia, [inaudible 01:02:25], and New South Wales, you know, all over the place, and then come to the NT. Portfolios can't be as big, and the reason behind that is transience of population. We're a more transient populous than anywhere else in Australia. Demographic, the age of our population is younger. And, unfortunately, what that means is they don't keep properties as well. Maintenance is higher because you've got the extreme weather events, etc., surrounding the property. And so, all in all, to actually manage an individual property, there's more man hours required with that. And, as a consequence, property managers can't manage as many. So that's the reason why the fees are higher and wages you have to pay them are higher. And you can't be ashamed of profit in real estate because if you don't make profit then you don't exist. So, as a consequence, you have to charge more than what you do down south.

Leon: Well, I've run out of questions, mate. I reckon I've learned everything I need to learn.

Glenn: Yeah, I can't actually teach that much.

Peter: About real estate. Shall we get back to the footie, Glenn?

Glenn: No, I've got nothing to talk about, mate. It's finals.

Peter: You can watch Leon fall asleep if we talk more footie. I've only got one more question for you, actually. You mentioned earlier that, as this whole thing with COVID kicked off, you withdrew all your money from the bank. Are you still carrying a lot of cash around?

Glenn: No, not at all. I bought a caravan with it.

Peter: Okay, well, there you go.

Glenn: As soon as I realized that the banks weren't gonna collapse, I used that cash and I negotiated the purchase of a caravan so that I could get back up over the border to the NT. So I took a four-week holiday up through WA, and came back and crossed the border. Now, unfortunately, I can't go anywhere, so...

Peter: You're stuck with a caravan.

Glenn: Anybody want to buy a caravan?

Peter: That could be a good change of scenery for you, mate. You could stay in the various caravan parks around Darwin.

Glenn: That's potentially the case, because I'm actually currently staying in the company unit. And then next week I move back into my unit for a month. By then I'll get Airbnb people coming in for Christmas and doing all that. Potentially, I'm actually staying on my couch in the office shortly.

Peter: Ah, well, as long as it's comfy, mate.

Glenn: Oh, it's very nice. It's a Chesterfield, so, yeah, it's good.

Leon: All right, mate. Thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing your story.

Glenn: No worries. Pleasure to be on here, boys. Thanks for having the chat.

Peter: That was Glenn Grantham, the general manager Raine & Horne, Darwin on the Territory Story podcast. We'll catch you again next time.

Announcer: You've been listening to the Territory Story podcast, with Leon Loganathan and Peter Gowers. For more episodes, search "Territory Story podcast" on all leading podcasting platforms. The Territory Story podcast, thanks to Oppidanus Digital Marketing, your local digital marketing agency.

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